http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/list/2.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Read the document there:
http://www.javablackbelt.com/DocumentView.wwa?docId=6594604

What do you think ?
Is that a good idea ?
Would you make it different ?

John]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/7.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/7.page GMT http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/9.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/9.page GMT
Meissa]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/12.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/12.page GMT

I think that the real problem is that new users author new questions [b]just to win contribution points[/b]. So they don't really think about the quality of their questions. Maybe that a better description of the exams objectives could help.

I don't know which solution can be found about that, but if I've an idea I will post it.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/27.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/27.page GMT
Hi Nicolas,

I agree with you: other things need to be done. I've written a 80 page document about that but we decided it's more efficient to debate with the community sub-topic per sub-topic.
The next one will be the moderation process. I'll post a news on this.

John.
]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/28.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/28.page GMT

After all, allowing members to reach the green belt without participating is a good thing. It might give to some members the desire to continue further and thus to post their own questions. ]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/31.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/31.page GMT http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/33.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/33.page GMT ? I personally do not insist on that, but I think it would be fair for old members.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/39.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/39.page GMT http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/41.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/41.page GMT
Andrey, I don't think so.
Most have not taken the exams in that exact sequence, so spending their points gave them additional freedom.
But I understand the feeling. If some think they'd have points back, I propose that they post a thread in the forum and an admin may manually give some.


[quote]has passing the exam before being given permission to author questions in that particular section been proposed?[/quote]

Daniel,
We have another feature in our backlog which we name "adaptive privileges". Contributions features (vote, edit, create,...) would not be allowed for beginners. At some level (belt, contribution point, quality factor) they would progressively get access to these features. I'll include your idea in the document. I'll post a thread to discuss this feature later (after a thread about the moderation process).

John.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/43.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/43.page GMT [quote]has passing the exam before being given permission to author questions in that particular section been proposed?[/quote]

I think this option has to be considered. I also think of those exams whose top contributors havent not passed the related exam yet.

In general, the process of contributing is not restrictif enough.

Meissa
]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/49.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/49.page GMT
I wouldn't be so concerned about cheaters, though. As it is now, users can take practice exams with a sample of real questions. I don't see that taking the free exams with fake users gives them much advantage.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/55.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/55.page GMT http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/72.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/72.page GMT http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/82.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/82.page GMT
I'm not just new to this site, I'm also relatively new to Java programming. These exams are harder than I expected and often feel like "trick" questions, due to my inexperience. I had to take the first two exams multiple times to pass, so I'm looking at an actual cost per exam of 3 or 4 times the listed contribution price because I don't know what I need to work on until I complete an exam and see the results. Unfortunately, this phenomenon translates to more questions contributed by the least experienced programmers.

I don't see how creating a second account to cheat the system helps toward the point cost, but it would get around the 15 day wait for a re-take. Personally, I don't feel the need to do that, 15 days of practicing the concepts is tolerable.

Another thing that would be nice is if people could re-take exams they have already passed once every 15 or 20 days. If I just barely pass a test I'd love to be able to go back every month or so to re-evaluate what I need to work on, to help me truly master the material. A 2 or 3 week cool-down between re-takes would prevent people from easily farming all the questions in the database.

If the free track to a green belt idea is approved, any idea on how soon it would be implemented? ]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/110.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/110.page GMT The argument of having freedom to choose the exams is valid. But also it should be considered that if there were a track free to follow, many would have followed it instead of spending points, saving them for future exams.
So my proposal is that people receive the points spent on the exams that are part of the free green belt track.
The points spent with exams outside the green track would have been spent by freedom of choice anyway but those on the green belt track were spent because there were not a free track before.
To make it clear, let me differentiate the points:
1- points spent on exams that will be on the free green belt track (if it gets approved).
2- points spent on exams other than those on the free green belt track.

My proposal is that points on the first category gets returned to everyone, even those who are not green belt yet and those who are green belt or greater already. The points on the second category wouldn't be returned.

Nicolas stated that: "(...) the real problem is that new users author new questions just to win contribution points. So they don't really think about the quality of their questions."
If that is true (and I believe so) and we are talking about users under the green belt, than it is another good reason to return them some points. This will prevent them from doing this kind of things just to earn points.

I would feel like begging for points instead of contributing if I insist on that, so like Andrey I won't insist. But I think it would be fair to return the aforementioned points.

Another last suggestion would be this one:
For those who already took all the exams, the points spent on the free green belt track could be returned like I said previously.
If there are missing exams on the track and one takes them on any other order, he can be considered as making his own track and the points would not be returned.
If there are missing exams on the track and one chooses to take them on the exact order (the other exams could be locked until he passes the green belt or decides to give up on the track), maybe all the green belt track points could be returned.

Anyway, I just think it would not be fair to those who spent contribution points and it would also be against the problem Nicolas stated.

Just my 2 cents.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/111.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/111.page GMT You don't get charged again to retake the exam. That cost is once per exam regardless of how many times you need to take it.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/115.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/115.page GMT
ah, thanks for clearing that up. heck, now the exams seem downright accessible; i'm all set.

it'd still be nice to be able to retake after a passing score. is there a better place to suggest that, or has this already come up and been addressed?]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/119.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/119.page GMT
As an alternative, don’t have contribution points added until a question has had sufficient review by the community (using a measure such as time or number of votes… etc.) Poor questions could even result in a negative score associated with them.


]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/120.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/120.page GMT But I agree that questions should only count once they are reviewed and accepted. And maybe by rating the quality of the question it could count more or less, depending on it's quality, and giving more or less contrib. points to it's author. This would stimulate people to think about their questions.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/122.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/122.page GMT
Agreed, on second thought taking away points is probably a bad idea. Just brainstorming. ]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/129.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/129.page GMT
We'll be working on implementing a better moderation process later this year, and the issues you brought up are being worked out. As John has mentioned, we'll be solliciting community input about it. it's a really complex topic.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/130.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/130.page GMT
We'll be working on implementing a better moderation process later this year, and the issues you brought up are being worked out. As John has mentioned, we'll be solliciting community input about it. it's a really complex topic.[/quote]

I look forward to contribute with some input.
BTW, you people at JBB are all doing a great job.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/135.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/135.page GMT The rules are a little complex on this. If you "just miss it", I believe you can retake immediately. Don't quote me on this though.

Can you start a new thread in this forum to discuss/suggest?]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/139.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/139.page GMT [/quote]

This is right around the corner! The current iteration is about a corporate stuff, but we're close to reach the testing phase.
"Free sequence to the green belt" is the main topic of the following iteration.

[quote=Peter Lupo]I have a proposal about returning the points spent with the exams.
... [/quote]

I'm agree with you Peter, I'm also convinced that not giving contribution points back to users that "paid" for those free exams is sad.
So we'll make sure to give points back to the users that took a part of the sequence (in certain condition only). Also we'll make sure to send a mail to tell them that they were refunded some contrib points.

Once we've started the next iteration we'll post here about development related to the new moderation process, so we can have your feelings and ideas.

Cheers,

-Aymeric
]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/153.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/153.page GMT
Hi Nicolas,

I agree with you: other things need to be done. I've written a 80 page document about that but we decided it's more efficient to debate with the community sub-topic per sub-topic.
The next one will be the moderation process. I'll post a news on this.

John.
[/quote]

I've done this on previous projects and it is called retrospectives. Most of the time you come up with good ideas to implement and more good ideas on why not implement them. For example in 2001 I was thinking doing a Wiki would solve several problems, but then I thought anyone could modify the contents of the Wiki and decided it was a bad idea. But in 2007 I realized I was wrong, because I could store the history and give permission to different users.

In short, it is better to try ideas than to do huge retrospectives and forums about ideas that have not been tried.

For example, if you want to try the Green Belt idea do it for a while (for a few days or a few weeks) and then see how it turns out.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/162.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/162.page GMT
If an exam needs 8 contribution points, then the fastest way is to just create 4 questions for that exam.

If people could get a fair amount of CPs doing other things like rating the questions of doing beta exams there wouldn't be a need to creating more questions when there is cleary more than enough questions in some exams.

This is not an easy problem to resolve and honestly I haven't put to much of my mind into it.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/174.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/174.page GMT
If an exam needs 8 contribution points, then the fastest way is to just create 4 questions for that exam.

If people could get a fair amount of CPs doing other things like rating the questions of doing beta exams there wouldn't be a need to creating more questions when there is cleary more than enough questions in some exams.

This is not an easy problem to resolve and honestly I haven't put to much of my mind into it.[/quote]

Yeah, Bruno has got a point here. If an exam has many unrated questions, maybe it could give more points for rating than creating new questions, balancing the situation on each exam. By doing so, exams with no questions would give many points for new questions until there are many unrated questions. When it happens, rating a question could give more points than creating new questions. I guess this would also speed up the creation of new questions.
Also I guess the more basic exams would give less points for new questions as I suppose they probably have many new questions authored by those who don't know very much about advanced topics and will make poor questions.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/175.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/175.page GMT [/quote]

The first couple exams ("Java SE - Basic" and "OO for Java - Basic") are already free and are all you need for the first belt. When you fail an exam, you should see the following:

"You can take this exam by giving contribution points.
If you fail, you won't have to give points again to retry"

change to:

"Retry exam without giving contribution points again"

So you shouldn't be paying multiple times to retake exams... if you are, let someone know!

[quote=Owen Kinney]
Another thing that would be nice is if people could re-take exams they have already passed once every 15 or 20 days.
[/quote]

You can already do this to a point. If you go to the test you want and click on the "Take a beta test" you should come to another page that lets you take 5 sample questions from the exam listing. But I agree it would be nice if this was extended a bit further for real exam questions, going through the beta questions is good and helpful as well though. Many of the beta questions eventually become exam questions anyways.]]> http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/208.page http://www.javablackbelt.com/forum/posts/preList/4/208.page GMT